The Future of Fairness: AI Bias & Ethics | The Curious Refuge Podcast

A Conversation with SMPTE President Renard T. Jenkins | Episode 08

The Future of Fairness: AI Bias & Ethics | The Curious Refuge Podcast 08

Welcome to Episode 8 of the Curious Refuge Podcast! Our guest today is one of the most accomplished people we’ve ever had the pleasure of chatting with on the podcast. Renard T. Jenkins is a senior executive in Hollywood and the current president of the Society of Motion Picture and Television Engineers (also known as SMPTE ) and on the board of the Hollywood Professional Association.

Renard has two Emmy’s and a Peabody among other awards. The Television Academy awarded him the innovator of the Year award for 2017.

Renard has worked in various leadership capacities around the industry ranging from Senior Vice president of Integration & Creative technology series at Warner Brothers all the way to VP of operations, engineering, and distribution at PBS. He also holds degrees and certifications in various executive and technological fields from schools like MIT, UC Berkley, Cornell, & Florida State.

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The Future of Fairness: AI Bias & Ethics | The Curious Refuge Podcast 08

Below is a transcript of episode 08 of The Curious Refuge Podcast.

The Curious Refuge Podcast 08 | The Future of Fairness: AI Bias & Ethics

Hello and welcome to the Curious Refuge Podcast. Our guest today is one of the most accomplished people we've ever had the pleasure of chatting with on the podcast. Bernard Jenkins is a senior executive in Hollywood and is currently the president of the Society of Motion Picture and Television Engineers, and he's also on the board of the Hollywood Professional Association.

Renard has two Emmys and a Peabody, among other awards, and was named the Television Academy's Innovator of the Year in 2017. Renard has worked in various leadership capacities around the industry, ranging from senior vice president of Integration and Creative Technology at Warner Brothers all the way to VP of Operations, Engineering and Distribution at PBS. He also holds degrees and certifications in various executive and technological fields from schools like M.I.T., UC Berkeley, Cornell and Florida State.And we had the pleasure of meeting Bernard in person for the first time at the Infinity Festival out in Hollywood, where we had a fascinating conversation about the ethics of AI. I'm going to catch my breath. Wow. So many awesome accomplishments. RENARD Thank you so much for joining us on the podcast. Thank you. Kelvin. Thank you. Shelby. You guys make me feel like I'm special.

I always think that I'm only special to my mom. So thank you. Thank you very much for that. I'm really happy to be here. This is this is such a cool podcast. And the thing that you guys are doing and getting people excited about all of this. So yeah, glad to be here. We were just so curious if we could just start things off by you just giving us a quick little background and what led you to be where you are today in the industry?

my gosh. That that wouldn't be little. But but yeah, I mean, look, I, I started I started out at university. A lot of people know my story. I started at university as a marine biology major, which is why we were talking about the fish behind my head and so forth. I love I love I love the ocean.

I love everything about the ocean. And I've just been curious about my entire life. So I was always a scientist, but I was also a kid who had a camera in his hand the entire time. And so when I went to university my senior year, I switched my majors and I switched from from being the guy who, you know, just happened to have a camera when we did any of our dives or any of our experiments in the lab to the guy who wanted to actually tell stories and tell stories about marine biology and tell stories about, you know, just the stories that were in my head.

So I switched it and got involved. Then I started in radio, actually, and that was because the college had a radio station and they needed a they needed a deejay who knew jazz and who do reggae. And those are both things that are part of my culture, my father being Jamaican and my mother being Senegalese. And so I just joined the radio station and I started doing that stuff.

And then my professor, he knew some folks in the film industry and he got me involved. And so I got to run around on some really cool, you know, pretty popular shows and on their sets that were that were filming in the area. And so that's how I really I mean, my real foot in the door was, was, you know, running around as an unpaid uncredited P.A. on a film set and people being nice to me and, you know, wanting me to learn and wanting to show me what they did because they were proud of what they did.

So I did that. And then, you know, and then at some point you have to have benefits and you need health care. Because when I was coming up, you know, you couldn't stay on your parents health care, you know, until you were 26. You 21, you're out the door, you know, figure it out on your own. So I, I got recruited into a broadcast job and I never really thought that I wanted to do broadcast.

And I, I kept telling myself, you know, I'll do broadcasts for, you know, two years and I'll go off and do some stuff. But I always kept freelancing on the film side of the background. And then I had this incredible love for animation that's always been there, whether I was doing Flip books or whether I was doing stop action with my film camera, just, you know, with a 36 frame roll of film, just taking pictures of my Matchbox and Hot Wheels cars as I was moving them around, I was always just fascinated by the idea.

And then claymation became big. And so that's what I started doing. I started playing around with Stop acts that were claymation. It was horrible. It was the worst you've ever seen in your life. But I was happy, you know, I was happy playing around with it and it was cool and so I started doing that and I always kept it in the background, no matter what job I had.

You know, I looked at, you know, everybody goes, how you have such an amazing career. But to be honest, I was looking at those sort of those movies with all these large companies and these large organizations. I was looking at those as, you know, jobs. Those were ways to pay for me to do the stuff that I actually enjoy and love, which happens to be, you know, visual arts and it happens to be filmmaking and animation writing and, you know, and then on top of that, I just really, really, really loved technology.

And so part of my degree was on that side of the world. You know, I have I have one of those brains that they say you're truly left and right. You know, I love math, but I also love the art. And I you know, if I was to describe all the things I love, it's probably kind of like home, like a smoother, more version of Steampunk.

I love gears, I love all those kinds of things. But then I want to make it like really smooth and cool. And I just wanted to be industrial, you know, sort of like a modern, slick, steampunk type thing, you know? So that's, that's kind of like me. That's, that's what I enjoy the tech behind all this stuff. And I enjoyed learning about it.

You know, that's what was so cool about meeting you and Shelby. Caleb It was like you guys. I was like, I met more people from my tribe. You know, they love they love the art. They do love the tech, too. So yeah. So it's just me, Matt, and I, you know, like I tell people all the time, I'm truly blessed, man.

I blessed career. I've I've been able to work for some of the coolest companies. I grew up loving, you know, Looney Tunes and all that kind of stuff. And I got to work with, you know, the folks that were the head of animation for for Warner Brothers and head of animation for Hanna-Barbera UK and and, you know, and Cartoon Network and all this stuff.

I got to work with those folks and and then I got to be at the beginning of Cartoon Network when I was working for Turner earlier in my career when they were just starting, man. So there are a lot of people who are really big in the animation world right now who I remember them just walking down the hallways of the of the old Turner campus, you know, as they were figuring things out.

So so yeah, that's me. I've gotten here and I enjoy it and and I, you know, I love it. And, you know, I love what you guys are doing, too. You know, I love seeing Caleb's head pop up with some new A.I. thing. And, you know, every week, you know, it's like, Lord, now he looks like Cary Grant.

wait. Now it looks like, you know, some old Hollywood star, like guy, you know, with all this A.I. stuff. So it's always hilarious. Thank you so much. Yeah, I feel like that might be the funnest part of putting those segments together, figuring out what's the latest thumbnail we're going to do. Yeah, it follows the video. It pops up and you see a little bell.

You're like, look, you're Caleb Shelby again. Saw It's too fun. It's so interesting because with everything you're saying, it sounds like you've always been incredibly curious, you know, exploring, claiming and exploring animation, just like constantly innovating and being curious. Have you found that with this, with AI and the new tools and the technology coming out of the AI, like are you finding that it's inspiring that kid again, that curiosity with a new, you know, I, I define myself as a curious engineer second and a creative first.

So I'm glad you picked up on that. Yes, I am very, very curious. Trust me, it would drive my mother crazy. I'm the kid that would never stop asking why. I mean, she could give me the answer and I wanted to know more. And so she bought like, you know, they used to like when when I was growing up, you know, way back when they used to sell encyclopedias and so they would go door to door.

My mother bought a like a set of encyclopedias just to shut me up. She was like, if I could just give him something that will answer the why, just go over there and read that. So I spent a whole summer reading encyclopedias, so I have tons of like, yeah, I guess it would be useful knowledge at some point, but it's quite dated now.

But you know. But, but yeah, I'm totally curious. I am. I am a big kid. I make the joke all the time. And my wife actually, you know, I don't know if she makes it as a joke or as an insult, but she always says, you know, you're like a 12 year old. And I always say, Look, I stopped maturing at 12.

When it comes to like, how curious I am about life, It's like just I just want to know everything. I just I love learning, which is why I'm always taking classes. I just truly, I feel like with everything that's available to us right now, if you take the time to really understand it, there's so much that we can do.And I also think that that sort of helps me not to be fearful of what is happening and what's being developed because I'm paying attention to like how it's being developed, you know, and what is a part of all of this. I started back with machine learning and deep learning back in like 2005, you know, And it was I was I was heading up a project and the project was to make, you know, sort of make the workplace more efficient.

And I had just taken a class in Kaizen, which is, you know, the wonderful work workforce process. And so in doing that, I just had in my mind like, how do I integrate this into what I do? I was just so jazzed about it. And I generally happens with me when I when I really connect with it with a theory or I connect with, you know, technology or something like that, I get really, really hyper focused on how can I actually use this in my day to day.

And so that's what I started doing. And then I, you know, I started calling it, you know, the media supply chain in the content supply chain and the production pipeline and using those terms. And people were like, what are you talking about? But it was in my head. So I had to I had to start to like, you know, just really take the architecture that I had in my head and put it on paper.

So, yeah, these tools now, there's so much more that I'm in the background, like just really trying to recreate or create just, you know, what else I can do with all of these incredibly powerful things. I love that. And I love that you've seen the potential of AI and machine learning for years. But it is really interesting to note that I feel like 2023 specifically was a monumental year in evolution, and it's been developing, I believe, in machine learning.

I mean, the foundations were laid in like the 6.0 yeah, it's like, like late fifties, early sixties. Yeah. And that I think for many people, even at that time, they were predicting that AGI was going to be happening like in ten years, that obviously everything would happened or at least to be brought up. And it and so I'm so curious, you know, because you are, I would say in the weeds you're researching your you really have a finger on the pulse of what has been happening on a technological standpoint.

Why do you think 2023 was so revolutionary for the advancement of AI technology? well, yeah, I, I was one of the people that was telling everyone to stop calling it A.I. back, what, 2018, 2016? Somewhere around there. I was stunned. Everybody was saying I had no say, Hey, that's stop, don't do that. That's that's you know, it's more like a marketing term.

Well, you guys are talking about right now, it's machine learning and automation. And that's really important. And let's not you know, let's not diminish the importance of that work because that's the foundation for where you want to get to. And so people are saying, it's just semantics. And I said, No, no, it's not. Artificial intelligence means that the system itself is now figuring out how it can be more.

Kaizen How can it can find incremental improvements throughout its day and throughout its lifecycle? What we're doing right now is we're doing machine learning and we're simply saying, Hey, go do this task and repeat this task. That's what we were doing. So when I look at 2023, I think what really happened was dinner time. I came out of the shadows and out of the lab and then it was made available for the masses.

And once that door was open, it didn't matter how bad it was. And let's just be honest, if I saw another dog with five legs or, you know, or a cat with four years, whatever was coming out of the image generators, I would just it was making me laugh. But every you know, every six months we saw that it was getting better.

And that was the beginning of really understanding. This really is generative and it is improving and it is working to improve and people are working on it to improve it. And that human connection, human and computer interaction was like just on fire in 23. And I'm going to tell you, while I think 23 was a good year for this, I think 24 is going to be the year where it really stands and it's record and this is going to be 2024.

It's going to be the year where if you are not on board with what's happening, you're going to really feel left behind because it is it's everywhere. And I know that there are still people who turn Siri off on their phone and turn off on their phone who don't want to have anything to do with this. And I can understand that, you know, the feeling of, hey, there's an invasion of privacy or something like that.

I totally understand that. However, the world around you is embracing this at just, you know, breakneck speed right now. So I am like I'm very bullish on what 2024 is going to have for us. I do believe that there will sort of be a bit of a plateau coming for us in 2025. I think at that point, you know, it's Gartner calls it, you know, the hype cycle, which is where we are right now.

But then there is the trough of disillusion that follows. And I think that's when we will see what is going to last and what is going to sort of go by the wayside. Right now, everybody's just really excited about it. They're putting a lot of time and effort into it and that's great because that's going to lead us to some really cool stuff.

So. So yeah, I that's I really think that getting it in the hands of the masses, making it easy for people to play, those are those were the keys to what spark 2023. But what sustained it was the fact that there were artists who actually understood that these are tools and they're, you know, this is not something to fear.

There were artists who got on board and said, Let me play with this show you what we can really do, you know? Yeah. So, so yeah, that's that's my theory on it. Yeah, I love that. And it's funny thinking about the, the hype cycle and you know, where we're at with a I read a report this morning that said I believe as anthropic is evaluated that something like 140 times its annual revenue and that's just ridiculous.

You know evaluations because so many people you know, we can imagine what the future might be with these tools, but we truly are figuring that out right now in real time. But my gosh. Yes. And then you I know you read about Nvidia like topping Amazon in stocks as well. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. That was the other thing.

I read this. Where else? Are you serious? You know, Amazon is no longer big Brother. Now it's in video. What's going on? Absolutely wild. It's funny, though, because we were together all talking on that panel at Infinity Fest and Nvidia right before us was showcasing some of the technology that they are working through. And it really does feel like magic.

It it does. It does. It does. But I always tell people, don't don't say that. Don't say the magic word. Don't do that, because then people start really getting fearful. It's just statistics, probability and mathematics. That's all it is. And there's a human telling you what to do. Now, what it decides to do with all that information afterwards, yes, it can get a little, you know, black boxes, you know, if you want to use that as a term.

But the fun of it is, is that there's still input and there's still human and there's still cool stuff. But yeah, when you say magic, you know what happens? Hey. no, you know that. Yeah. People will start coming out with crazy stuff. But it wasn't magic. But I tell you what it was. It was take one, though, like a karate training, because what it actually did was train an AI model to learn how to be a samurai.

It was like, well, that we start, which is very cool. That was really cool. Was it based on like one input of footage or something? And it was training it, I don't know, maybe something like that. Like they trained it on maybe like 10 minutes of reference footage, perhaps like that. And then they were able to it was able to mimic what what the human was doing from the reference footage.

So, yeah, there's a lot of cool stuff that's happening. I mean, really they there's a lot of cool stuff that's happening. I mean, people people are not paying as much attention to Canva as they are to all these other apps. But Canva is so much fun. It's so, so, isn't it? You know, that's really show me I enjoy Canva because in in yes, I play around with my journey and and you know and instability fees and all of those others.

But for some reason, Canva just feels intuitive, you know? And it's not like the the UI is any really any different from the others, but it just feels, it feels intuitive and, you know, and of course the Adobe products, I mean look, Adobe's on fire actually. People are really paying attention to what Adobe is doing. Then you are really missing the boat because they are on fire and no pun intended with Firefly, they really are everything they're doing.

I mean, it's it's one of those thing that you can watch and you say, Wow, this is really cool. And then then, you know, then they're the, you know, sort of the the old guard with with IBM and Microsoft. There's a lot of work being done. There's a lot of work. Copilot is copilot is fine. You know, if you if you do a lot of spreadsheets and all that kind of stuff.

And then I do a lot of, you know, pretty much the entire. 365, I work within that space. And I can tell you, playing around with copilot has been fun, too. And I love the fact that it learns like my cadence of speaking. So it's suggesting what I probably would say. So I actually I've enjoyed that part of work.

It's pretty cool. But there's simple little things like that that are making huge differences. And it's not just all of the big stuff, you know? And I was having having a friendly debate with a friend of mine last was last week, week before last, and we were talking about what we thought was going on with AI and where was going to go.

And we were saying, yeah, you know, both of us agree that sometimes, you know, organizations don't really fully prepare for these kinds of changes, you know, and a lot of them don't prepare because they they are they're not aware of everything that it takes to actually make this kind of change. So they kind of they fail, but they don't fail fast.

They they fail over time with with, you know, unwise decisions. And we were we were talking about that. And I said, yeah, you know, that does happen a lot. But what I can say is that, you know, I think this is either going to be and I use the term and or I said it's going to be a help and or a constant companion.

And he said, no, I would remove the or I think it is going to be a constant companion. And I said, Well, okay, I hear you, but what do we do with those people that are you know, just really not going to get on board with using this, you know, so so I said we can never be 100% on it being a constant companion.

And he said, Well, I think what we really have is a different definition of the word. And and then I said, Maybe you're right, but I think both of us were right in that situation because it's going to be here and there are going to be those of us who are like, yeah, it's outlook I it's it is a classic, a magnet.

You know, however, you guys have heard me say before, I'm on the side of the resistance, I am not going to join the robot army. I'm going to be the person that is like, Hey, you know, I want to help and figure out how this stuff can work. But I also want to help and make sure that we have controls over all this stuff.

You know, we have a lot of controls over all this stuff that we do. Put some guidelines, some standards and policies in place to make sure that it is being used in a fair and equitable manner across the map. I think if we if we let any anything just go, it can get bad. And a tech that is this powerful with, you know, with the wrong people at the controls, it can go south and not be really a really cool thing for us.

But but so so yeah I yeah I that's just me and you know I want to be involved in those things. I enjoy the work that I'm doing for the TV Academy and, and for, you know, for sympathy and, you know, you know, go attending all these copyright meetings and all this kind of fun stuff. I you know, that may be fun for me.

Something for our meetings may not be fun for everybody, but when it's a subject that I love, I can get into it. When it's a subject that I don't love being sure I'm the kid who's pasted eyeballs on his eyes while he's sleeping, making the. I'm curious to backtrack a little bit with what you're saying. Sounds like you you really have the opportunity to be this person in a room who's like when someone saying, it's magic and we don't know what's happening within that, you get to kind of help be that person to bring reason, to bring logic, just to tell people like, Hey, don't be fearful.

Have you seen people respond well to that and have you seen people like shift towards AI and also like, what? What do you how do you encourage those people who are still kind of traditional filmmakers who are really afraid of how things are changing right now? You know, that's that's a good question, Shelby. I, I actually did have someone after I gave a primer, I gave an A.I. primer to some folks who they're they're in the art side of the world.

I did have someone come to me and they said, you know, the way that you explain it and the way that you make it very simple for us to understand is complex terms and, you know, and all this stuff that's happening. It did make me feel more comfortable. But it seems like you're very you're very you're very into it.

You're very much into it. And I said, Well, I am. But remember, as I introduced myself, I said, I'm a creative first. So for me, I look at it as this is another tool, you know, And you guys know we we showed the video of Photoshop and what people were saying about Photoshop and being that my first artist tool beyond a pencil and crayon was a camera, you know, that resonated with me when you guys said, Hey, let's use this video as part of our panel.

I was like, Wow, I never saw that video. This is really cool. But it did hit on all the things that we're hearing today. And so I tried to be that person who kind of gets everyone to sort of, you know, bring the temperature down a little bit and then explain to them how they can use it and how it can be of help to them.

And if I can get them to understand how it can be of help to them and then show them something really cool and really like really short, something really short that they can do, whether it's just, hey, just type this in or speak this into my phone and watch what what happens. you know, one of one of the one of the image generators that's on on hugging face that helps like a huge graphic novel and comic book fan.

And so you can create your little comic panels by using it. And I don't want to say the name wrong. I forgot. I know it's image something, but I forgot the name of it. But I will use that every night and like I have it bookmarked and I will use it every now and then. They say, Hey, what's your favorite comic book?

And you know, you tell me and I'll say, Hey, what would you like for that comic character to do? Or what would you like to, you know, a character? Would you like to create your own character? And then I would say, okay, just be really descriptive in speak into my phone what it is that you want your character to look like.

And they will speak into the phone and, you know, I'll say, okay, give me give me, you know, 60 or, you know, 90 seconds or whatever, because I'm using the free version. It takes a moment and it will generate something that has a lot of the characteristics that they they said. And I think that is just one of those sort of icebreakers that give people say, wow.

So so I use it. I say, look, this isn't trying to replace you, but if you're a writer and you have writer's block, isn't it always great when you have something that's like inspirational to you that helps break you out of that writer's block? So, you know, whether you go and you take a walk or you go and you look at family photos or you look at something that breaks you, how this can help you in that same way, it can sort of get you started again, you know, and then you can say, wow, I never thought about it from that angle.

Let me take that angle and then use all of my creativity to actually develop what's going to happen next. And so, yeah, yeah, I try to be XLVI So, so yeah, I want to be that. I want to be that person that helps people embrace this. But like I said, I also know that my responsibility is to be the person that protects.

And in works us through this process in the best way possible. I really want to to talk about that, that role that you just mentioned of you to to help us protect ourselves from these new technologies that we're developing. And we can transition to that just in a moment. But I have one quick story. So my mother, who is not very tech savvy at all, I love her to death.

Dunno, she's a saint, but she sent me a message yesterday. Her Valentine's present to her husband, which this will air after Valentine's Day. She used A.I. to create an impressionist painting of her and her husband together. That is going to print it out and give it to her husband and also use Pseudo, which is the text to music tool to write a love song to him.

And so she going to play that.

Wow. And I just love that story because I feel like it embodies this ethos that you just talked about of how, you know, 2023 was interesting for the tech nerds, 2024 for the mass audiences, and really about how the larger world is going to adopt these tools that that what felt like a turning point for me. And it's so similar to that exercise it's so cool.

Yeah, like I would never have had on my bingo card that we'd be texting your mom about. I know it was. Yeah. Yeah. And I think she's like, How can I remove this third arm? I was like, Mom, was this there's a thing called in painting. We're about to go down. And also, ever had so much fun talking to my mom, she was like, I'm losing a lot of time this is like I'm getting lost in the fun of it.

And I'm like, I get that. Yeah, and it's so cool. But look, we've seen how addictive a lot of the applications are. You know, when you look at all this social media apps, I mean, they truly are addictive. I will be the first one to tell you I try to avoid reals and things like that because once I look at one reel an hour later, I look through like, you know, a hundred or so of them because, one, they're funny and they're engaging, or even if they're not, I'm sort of like, Well, I got to watch the end because surely this is going to be better than what I'm seeing now.

So you get pulled in. And I think that these tools, the way that they are built right now, it's also playing on that same sort of desire for us to have that dopamine rush. It's like, when I type in, you know, a more cinematic terms, it's starting to look better and that's getting closer to what I really want.

And so where our brain is telling us, like, keep going, you know, this is great, keep going, you're feeding into me and I'm excited about it. So keep doing it. I just yeah, it can be very addictive once you get people, you know, working in that space. So I, I really hope that artists that they really start to understand their role in this.

But I think one of the most important things, especially for those of us who are engineers and production technologists and the ones who are really working to create these tools, I think that it's important for us to to do what I've coindesk as inclusive innovation and inclusive innovation really is. There's a whole there's a whole system of how I put it together.

You know, you have design theory and how design theory works, and a lot of people work in that space, but inclusive of innovation, make sure that has engineers. And as artists, we're working together to actually create these tools. And it's not an engineer who's sitting in a corner sort of saying, Hey, I think I have come up with the best idea for the world.

I'm going to kind of put this together. It's really coming together, and I think it's a it's a circular process. So it never stops. And at any point you can insert someone in to the process and they can contribute to the process. And so I think it when we when we use inclusive innovation as a way for us to look at the development of these tools, it's going to be a lot less scary for people.

We're are expecting to use the tools, but if we continue to sort of build it and say here, take this black box and just use it, and no, I don't really know what the black box is doing, but you just use it and it's going to go back to to that. You know what we said about the word magic?

People people are fearful of that, you know, And so so I think inclusive innovation is really the way forward for all of us as we start to developing more tools, as we start to play with more tools. And and, you know, I mean, create with more tools. Yeah, that that's so helpful. And I feel like you said something at Infinity Fest that sticks with me.

I think about it almost once a day because, wow, so profound. I feel really touched about that. And it was specifically conversations surrounding bias with artificial intelligence. And you said something that completely flipped the script for me is that bias is not inherently a bad thing. And I was wondering if you could speak to that, because I think that's a very interesting perspective that is very sure.

Yeah. You know, look, as as a child, you learn very, very early. Don't put your hand on the stove because it's hot,

okay? You develop a bias towards putting your hand on hot things. That's good. And that that helps in that protects us as human beings. So there is there is that innate thing that is in us, that's born in us to protect ourselves.That type of bias. There's nothing wrong with that. The the problem is, is when that bias is led by fear, it's led by, you know, inaccurate understanding of individuals or cultures or things like that. And that is what leads to the bad side of things,because now you're living out of fear. You're living in a space of, of, of, you know, of not understanding.

Yeah. You know, things that are around you and not just people, but just, you know, things around you. And that goes for this technology as well. So all of that can actually make its way into the development of a tool. And once it makes its way in, it's very hard to get it out because you're talking about using language, large language models that are just millions of lines of data.

And within that data, if you have actually inserted that part of you that fears that part of you, that doesn't understand that part of you that wants to because of that fear, hold something or someone else down, if that's a part or you don't want to identify, then as a part of the system that you're building, that kind of bias is very, very bad.

And we should be fighting against that in everything that we build. And the best way, I believe, for us to do that is through inclusive innovation. Because if your team looks like the world that you intend to serve and to teach you to develop these tools for, then they're going to notice when something is biased towards them or towards others.

And so, yes, I believe that bias is not inherently bad. I believe that bias is there to protect us. But I also believe that it can't go into hyper overdrive because then it's going to harm us. So that's why I say that we have to understand bias and we have to remove that bias from these algorithms and we have to make sure that good bias is there.

Like I want a system that tells me I am not going to be xenophobic, I am not going to be, you know, misogynistic or racist or homophobic. I'm not going to do those things. I want all systems to be that way so that as people use them, they feel comfortable using them because they they can they can say, Hey, someone thought of me, you know, and and I had a place in the development of this because someone spoke up for people like me.

So that's that's why I said and I want people to really understand it because at the beginning of a lot of the conversations around ethics and bias, everyone was saying, you know, we've got to remove bias, we've got to remove bias, we've got to be ethical in the way that we do it. Yes, we do have to be ethical in the way that we do it.

And that's the key. Ethically, sourcing and ethically cleaning and ethically monitoring your data, that's how we get to the point where we can even hopefully one day not have to worry about the bad bias because it's sort of been wiped out. And when you think about the systems, when they're the the algorithms don't think right or wrong, they just simply think mathematically as statistically, what's the greatest probability for me to actually answer the question that's been asked?

That's all that it's doing. So if you look at it that way, we can get to a place where we can, you know, get rid of the bad bias, at least in the systems. Now people have to keep working on that and that's good and that's going to take some time. But, you know, it's it's really about the conversations that we continue to have.

You know, if you make an enemy your friend, they're no longer your enemy, you know, And you do that through understanding and you do that through conversations. And hopefully these systems can help because I'm not only looking at these systems for use in media and entertainment, the things that I'm looking at and developing are, you know, tools that I hope will be helpful in health care and tools that I hope will be helpful really in education.

So, of course, I want to make sure that these things don't have a bias, that they they they don't have a bad bias, that they can actually truly help everyone. And that's that's my goal. Yes. Yeah. Thank you so much. Clarifying that the visual it's so interesting and and I think there's a conversation that I want to have regarding the the ethical use and and development of artificial intelligence.

And there's kind of two news stories to bounce off of your one is the EU, I believe was just last week introduced or finally ratified their first large resolution on artificial intelligence. And there's some really interesting sub points in there. And the other one is more of an observation, and that is that, you know, I feel like in the United States specifically, it tends to be innovation at all cost as it relates to the AI and feels like there's this arms race where everyone is just shipping as fast as possible as one.Just quick example doesn't really have anything to do with language models. But we were talking with the runway team a couple of weeks ago and they were saying how one day an engineer came up with the ability to do the multimodal Motion brush tool and shared it with the team and within two weeks it was shipped in on their platform, which was just crazy.

It's it's wild like that now that now that. Yeah. But I feel like that almost highlights some sort of larger conversation where these companies are perhaps looking at ethics and using these tools responsibly as breaks that are getting in the way of their progress. So I'm wondering if you have any thoughts on how to kind of bridge that gap and have those conversations with these companies that are having profound impacts in the way in which culture is shaped through the use of their technology?

How can we we encourage the use of those tools while helping them to to stay relevant at the same time? Yeah, that that's a that's a really tough life. That is a tough one. But because your you like described it perfectly when you use this description of an arms race, I mean, that's really where we are right now.

Everybody wants to be at the top of what's happening right now. There's a lot of money being thrown around. So of course, everyone's interests, you know, it peaks now because they want to say, hey, I want to figure out how can I get more of this? And that drives. Sometimes it can drive, you know, sort of not ready for prime time tools being thrown out there without them being fully tested and without them actually being fully vetted for what their impact will be.

It's not just about the tool in itself and and what it can accomplish in the sense of helping a creative. It really is about the impact that it has on the users and on our society as a whole. That should be one of the primary things that all of these companies take into account when they're doing this. You know, the fact that we know that the brain of a 12 year old male or female is still developing.

So an unfettered amount of, you know, access to screen time and to into all of the stimuli negatively affects them as they continue to develop. That's something that we should be looking at. That's something that we should figure out, Hey, wait a minute. You know, not only should there be time on this, but there should be a way that this cannot be turned on or we should look at how we're developing these these these applications and these tools to maybe mitigate against that.

That should be part of it. But we're we're in this race for efficiency as well. And so if someone comes up with something that we feel is going to make what we do more efficient, then what we find is that that has the tendency to be pushed out into the public very, very quickly. And in doing so, once again, maybe, just maybe, we didn't check all of the boxes with what that impact both positive and negative, is going to be.

So I think having conversations with folks like that at the the you know, really truly at the C-suite level, you need to be talking to them at the C-suite level and letting them know that, yes, there's a way for you to continue to make all of the wonderful, you know, financial gains that you're making. There's a way for you to actually continue to be innovative and create, you know, just phenomenal tools.

But there's also a way for you to protect those users because in truth, if you're doing something that's harming your users, that's bad business. You know it's bad business because over time you're going to run out of users. You know, there's not an infinite number of users. And with tech, because there is still a huge tech divide in our world, that amount of users is even smaller.

Yes, you know, 256 million. I think iPhones are out there in the world, but there's 8 to 9 billion people. So that's a pretty small, you know, Little Rock in the pond when you think about it. That's really insightful. And I feel like especially, you know, as us on this call, we tend to be very tech minded people, you know, in an artistic fields.

And we've had incredible opportunities. And I think that sometimes it can be hard to remember that that perspective of what the. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right. Yeah. You got to protect you got to protect the people, you know, really and truly, you shouldn't be creating anything that's going to cause harm. And I don't think that anyone really does that.

I, I believe that people don't do that intentionally. It really comes down to, you know, how people decide to use the tools and there there there are bad actors everywhere. And when they get their hands on tools, they may have bad intention. I don't think they will ever be able to sort of fight against that happening. But we do is maybe put in place ways to make that a little bit more difficult and ways for us to recognize when that's happening earlier so that there can be actually taken.

You know, I, I was laughing because everyone was saying and this was an article that was in I think I think it was in Collider I'm not sure, but it was it was an article. It started saying, you know, all of the all of the folks in the C-suite need to be concerned and not just the people who are in the line level artists, jobs and all these types of things the C-suite should be concerned about as well, because they're at a disadvantage, too, you know, without without educating themselves about it, without understanding what strategies need to be put in place, and also understanding that in truth, a lot of large language models could be

used to replace some of the duties that, you know, current C-suite officers actually, you know, perform. You know, there was one that talked about the fact that you remember, but they were looking specifically at at certain roles that had to do with finance and how that could happen. And I thought that was an interesting take on things, you know, So it make it once again it gets back to and then it went on to talk about the cottage industry that's being created for people.

You know, like me to go in and help C-suite folks understand how to do all this stuff. But that was, you know, but the thing was, was that this is why this is happening. And so everybody needs to be educated about this. And the more that you're educated about it, the more that you'll understand when you see something that could actually, you know, go in the wrong direction.

And then you have the responsibility and say, okay, let's slow this down. Let's put put things back in place where they belong, and let's try and make sure that we're helping and not hurt. I think that's that's so good. And I love that. Earlier you brought up Adobe and how innovative they are and and Google as well. You know just this yeah yeah they released Google gem now advanced and it's really is incredible and and I it was very funny because I think when especially if we're talking about 2023 and some of the innovations that happened you know obviously open AI mid journey and some of these companies that really skyrocketed last year, it

felt like from the outside looking in that, Google got caught off guard or Adobe got caught off guard. But I think what ultimately happened is they were having ethical conversations about how they could do that in a way that helped society as opposed to look at this incredible thing we have to get right now to seize this opportunity.

And so I think it's been reassuring to see some of those larger companies doing things the right way and in a sustainable way that that works for for everyone. So. yeah, that's a great point and it's a great point. And the fact that Adobe has put in, you know, and ethicists as part of the process, I think that's really good.

I haven't paid as much attention to what to what Google is doing in that space, but I've heard them talk about it and in videos another company that has been looking at the ethics behind what they're doing for quite some time, like I, I was I had a for a while I had like a bi monthly call with a few folks from in video for almost, almost two years where we were we were really just talking about the ethics of artificial intelligence, the ethics of what what was being done.

That was that was our our main mission in those conversations. And we we did a session at at the EPA, and unfortunately it was during the time when COVID was just ending. So most of the folks that were there couldn't travel, but all of their input was in the presentation and in a lot of people came up to me afterwards and they said, you know, this is really forward thinking.

What you all have been looking at and how you've been approaching this. So I do I do applaud. I applaud. And, you know, and and I mentioned Adobe because I know what they're doing, because they've shared with me what they're doing. But I don't want to down anyone else's company. I just haven't been engaged with you to understand.

So you know. Yeah. Reach out to me and tell me what you're doing. I want you know, I want to I want to highlight those folks that are doing good work. I want to make sure that, you know, as I'm writing articles and doing keynotes and things like that, that I do highlight the people who are doing the good work.

I'm curious to kind of expand on that, but also shed a little bit. So I was listening to your interview on Zoom back, which was so good, and I heard you talk about, first of all, being a night owl, which I resonate with, and it is a struggle to live in a society that prioritize your mornings. Yes, Turn on the brain at NPN, but also you mentioned how at that's when you start to research and, you know, learn.

And so I'm curious like, how do you where do you begin in researching? Like where do you start in the evening and how do you, I don't know, stay inspired. And it's just it's such an ever evolving industry. So I feel like there's probably so many papers to read constantly. How do you do that? Well, I read this newsletter by these two folks, Curious Refuge, and that actually helps me to kind of get started on that idea play, you know, seriously, I do.

I do. Make sure that I do read what you guys are putting out there. There are a number of there are a number of papers that are out there right now. There are a number of little apps that are aggregating, you know, what's happening in the space. So I do spend about usually about 2 to 3 hours kind of diving in and reading those.

And then I have my medium feed with the app medium, I have my medium feed curated to to certain things that really for me they help focus on that. Then the other thing is I go old school and, and I read, I read like, okay, the technology sections of of the L.A. Times of the New York, not the Post.

I'm not really opposed, but the New York Times and the Bay Area Times, San Francisco, I definitely pay attention to what's happening there. And then there are some some other ones that are that really focus on Silicon Valley and what's happening. So those are the things that I read in our research, and that's for me. That's like, okay, let me read these things as I'm getting ready to go to bed, because that sort of it gives me a chance to like, digest this information passively as I'm sleeping, and then I'll wake up and I'll go back over and again.

But, Shelby, if you're like me, I get like 4 hours and then I'm back up and then I'm back up and I'm reading and it drives my life crazy. And I know one of these days she's going to she's going to put me out of the world. But I, I often get my, my, you know, either my device or it or I have my little book light and I'm like, reading things.

And then about 830 in the morning, I'm dead tired and I don't want to get up going.

I got to get up and start the day with the regular people, me in the mall, people. We did all this work at night and even last night I just was like my brain was just on. Like, I just was like. I just got up. Just came into this room alone. Was like journaling and writing some questions, thinking through our conversation.

Like, I don't know, it just something happens and it's like, I could be so tired. And then I 10 minutes and I'm like, Yeah, let's create this same thing, same thing. I will struggle through the day. But then around, you know, around the same time in my brain, it just kicks in and it is hard for me to go to sleep because it's hard for me to turn it off.

I mean, you know, I've I've, I've talked to people about how do I do this? You know, because I got to be I got to be effective on during the day. But luckily, luckily, I don't require a lot of sleep at this point in my life. I really do. You know, if I get a good, you know, 5 to 6 hours, I'm good.

And I'm good for the rest of the day. And I keep going unless, like I said, unless it's like a subject that I'm not interested in it. All of a sudden everything happens and, you know, you see, I'm a kid in the back of the class going to sleep. Well, I have one last kind of larger question before we get to our rapid fire questions at the end and it's completely unrelated to everything that we've talked about today.

So excuse me if this comes up here, but we just saw a news article, I believe is today or yesterday that came out that said the Super Bowl was the most watched broadcast in history. And I think it's 23 million viewers. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah. So I was going to say. Yeah, yeah. Well, yeah. What were the iPhone owners?

What was the it's not quite more than iPhone or iPhone owners, probably double that number. But I think that it's still behind the moon landing. I still think I think it's still behind the moon landing. And I can't hear what that number was for the moon landing. But. Yeah, but it's up there or up there. Taylor Swift Being in the Super Bowl is just below the moon landing.

\\Is that what you're telling me? Don't mess with those swifties, man. That's like I know Warren Beyhive the Swifties. I'm not mess with you. They can take down government. It was a big night. It was. Yeah, it was. It wasn't. It was a big night. It was like not only that, it was a great game and you know, you had a game that was close the entire time and it was really like watching a really intense, you know, physical chess match, like a chess had violence.

You know, You're from the Bay Area, though, right? So yeah, for the 40 Niners, I well, let me let me let me tell you this. I have a I am a diehard Oakland Raiders fan. Okay. So I had no real dog in that fight because I can't necessarily go across the bay and root for the Niners and I can't root for Kansas City because they're in our conference and they are like mortal enemies.

So I have to root I had to root for my AFC conference, which just happened to be represented by Kansas City. Okay. Okay. So it's it's a difficult relationship that I have with the Raiders because I am an Oakland Raider fan. I grew up as an Oakland Raiders fan and it is like every ten years my girlfriend leaves me for another city.

So I have to go through the mourning process and then come back on board as a Raider fan. So. So that's where I was. Have you had a chance to make it out to the Las Vegas Stadium yet? I have. I got to see it. I got to see it. And this is the joy of being in this business.

We had a conference in Las Vegas. Wow. Who knew? so we were there and one of the vendors had a had a like a party at the stadium. And we got to see it before it was like officially open to the public. So it was really cool to go in and look around and to see it is beautiful stadium, beautiful stadium.

It really is. Yeah, it's, it's, it's that is the most technologically advanced stadium in the world, all in in the NFL right now. But we know someone is looking to build something bigger somewhere so there'll be a new one. The waiting will be like the sphere the way that we have the like field and that's wild. Yeah. Hey, see, see, look at us.

We're we're, we're not even concerned about the game. We're all about the tech. The tech. Okay, exactly. I was like, I don't know what was more impressive, like Patrick Mahomes performance or the fact that I saw a video with the Wi-Fi speeds in that stadium and it was like 300 up and down those. Well, you just surprised the video of the tour of the stadium.

And we were just like, have you ever seen. I fired that. Yeah. So he's like, you know what? You know, just go in like, hey, out in the parking lot instead of a Starbucks, you're going to get a much better, much better reception. I know. That's a great idea. I think. Caleb, you were going to ask, you know, with that being the largest, like the.

Well, I guess I get to the moon landing. Yeah. From your perspective, what can we learn from that? What does that mean for the future? I you know what? I, I have always said that as broadcasters and as creatives, people in the media entertainment area, we have an incredible responsibility to understand the reach that we have. And with that kind of reach comes a lot of responsibility for us to do like good stuff.

With this. We have to be careful with what we put out in the world. And for me, that's that's what it says. You know, I think I think it was an entertaining night and people were really excited about the game. It and it was a good game. So people stayed engaged and they continue to watch. Wasn't a blowout where everybody leaves after halftime.

I think that it was just one of those things where we as we as creators and sort of, you know, stewards of this technology and of the of the airwaves and so forth, We have a responsibility to understand what that reach can do and how we can affect change and how we can affect, you know, others and how we can impact individuals.

We have to be responsible. And I think that for me is what what that number says. That's that's that's a lot of that's a lot of eyeballs. And that's that's you know, that's one way that you can actually do some good, you know, put some good out there in the world. I love that you you received that news about it being a gigantic broadcast and your response, is it money first?

It's not. the industry is like going to be making all this and it's responsibility. I think that's that that speaks a lot to your character and your vision for the industry, which is so, so awesome. Well, thank you. Thank you. I mean, it really That really is. And it's from who My my mother and my stepfather raised me to be.

I think that's really that's that's just the way I see the world. I am one of those people that believes that you know, the money part of what we do it really that once again, it's like like the like, yeah, I it's a tool. It's a tool for us to be able to either do more or for us to actually do those things that really bring us joy.

But that's what it's here for. So. So I tend not to look at that aspect of things too much. You know, unless I don't have it, then I'm going to be really focused on it. I need to make it because I'm no longer able to do the things that I like to do, right. You know? So yeah, I think I look for said those things that were instilled in me as a child to be important.

Well, to ask a few questions, the Rapidfire questions. I just want to also go off of that. You mentioned earlier that you like. I want to add this to our rapid fire questions, but earlier you mentioned you kind of you know, you would work and then in the work would fuel your creativity. At the end of the day, what is the work fueling for you creatively right now?

Like what is a creative project you're working on? Where are you having fun doing at the end of the day? I'm I'm writing an animated short right now. Yeah, I'm I'm writing an animated short. I'm going to old school. I said I want to I want to write the short without the use of of a I for for the the writing aspect of it.

But I'm also working with some really cool friends of my and we're working on it together. And I reconnected with a friend of mine who's incredible illustrator of and so we talked about doing character development. My, my oldest daughter is, she is a freshman in university and she is she's majoring in theater performance, but she's also an incredibly gifted writer as well.

And I don't just say that because I'm her dad, but her teachers actually say how gifted she is as a writer. So she and I made a pact over the holidays when when everybody was home and we said, we're going to we're going to exchange, you know, character development on on a character, just one character between me and her.

But I'm really I'm really excited about about doing that. But I'm also doing I'm you know, I'm doing my air VR stuff, too, you know, and that that's always fun. Then there's application development, which is another way for me to be creative. So yeah, those are both are things that are happening right now. So. man, that's incredible.

I'm now like, I want to I feel like we need to have a second podcast interview because we don't even get to have the questions we have for you. But even everything you say, I'm just like, now I want to talk about that. Like, Yeah, you're fine. You're too awesome. I'm like, How do you. So I think you guys are awesome.

I'm so glad that Catherine Brilliant brought us together. I really am. Yes. I'm so glad that she brought us together because I, I was like, Wait a minute. I hadn't heard of Curious Rasheed. She's like, No, go here. And then when I did, I'm like, man, I got I got to be a part of that. So I'm planning my I'm planning my, my, my chance to to get in on one of your, one of your film, your film courses so we can have some fun, you know, because I'm looking at all the films that you guys recommend and The Heist is still my favorite.

The one about the bank heist, that's still my favorite,

01:05:54:18 - 01:05:58:08

like who is on the Curious Refuge team created that bank heist film.

Yeah. Yeah. Would

connect you with me and I. And I and I. And I asked for. I asked for part two and I said I said I want, I want part two. You can't leave me hanging like this. I got to know what happened. And he responded that he said he's gay, that he's like, I got to think about, well, partner with you.

He is so amazing. He joined our course. I think October just says the student and now works like full time with us. And we're just like, that's beautiful. I imagine. Incredible. You can't travel without like, it's just beautiful. Yeah, that was such a fun. That was. And I happen to like, that kind of genre. I like that action, you know, actually mystery type of, you know, you know, whodunit type thing.

And yeah, he hit on it. I thought that was really cool. I was like, That's a really cool. I was fun. I think I even posted about like, Hey, you know, take a few minutes out of your day and watch this, you know, how. But yeah, yeah. So, so yeah, that's, that's what I'm doing. I'm having fun. I have all these friends who are animators who have done some really cool stuff.

Some of them have gotten awards and things like that, you know, So so I try to, I try to sort of learn from them. you know, and that's, you know, it's always been my it's always been my hobby. But, you know, they made it a you know, they made it a career. And so I'm learning from them how I can I can have fun and do that kind of stuff.

So, yeah. well, my second question was going to be, are there any creators that excite you? It sounds like I might be one of those I like, Yeah, yeah, I guess. I guess definitely one that excites me. I a you know, it's funny because I get so wrapped up in the tech and the imagery or the sound that I forget the people's names.

Yeah. Who are actually creating it. But there's some cool stuff that's happening, like fashion and, and marketing. There's some fun stuff that's happening there. If you start looking at some of the things that are being done. And I think it's actually hilarious that people are creating Instagram synthetic humans and, using them as like brand reps and things like that.

I think that's pretty fun. but just looking at the way that I think for me there's, there's a part in, in, into the spider-verse at the end where the 2D and 3D animation is being sort of just co-mingled. It's happening at a really, really rapid pace and you're seeing all this stuff happen. That transition between the two is like one of the most interesting things to me.

And then I'm seeing people do that with artificial intelligence in the way that they're transitioning between their imagery and within their their animations or their their short form content. And I just think that I'm like, wow, you know, that's a whole new way of of getting to your story and kind of pushing your story forward. So so yeah, that's, that's something that's, that's exciting to me but I killer were people's names.

Yeah I got to do better with that because these are some really cool artists and they're doing some really, really fabulous stuff. So I'm, I commit to being better about remembering names, so. Well, maybe one last quick one more question. Okay. Yeah. Okay. I have one. If it's okay, go for it. Unless you had one. I want to hear it.

Graphic novel. wow. I think the Parker series of graphic novels would probably be my favorite. That would probably be my favorite series because it gets into sort of my my love, like I said, for the action genre and sort of has a little bit of the spy thing. But then again, I like, I like the new war type stuff as well.

So yeah, I think Parker would probably be my favorite. Like I've read those, I probably read them at least four times. Even even though, you know, I know how the story's going to end. I just I read those. I just I just enjoy I enjoy it. But but then again, like I said, I enjoy I enjoy a lot of type of old school, especially if it has a little bit of old Hollywood in the mix of what they're actually doing.

For some reason, that 1960s, 1970s Hollywood sort of mystery type thing piqued my interest. That's great. Well, we're included links to all those below this video, and we'll probably have to go to Amazon and purchase it to ourselves. So thanks for that. Rick. Yeah, well. Renard Thank, you so much for hopping on the podcast and being so generous with your thoughts and with your time.

We really appreciate it. And we're just, I guess just from the community to you, so grateful to have people who are thinking about the ethical and responsible use of these technologies and who can be those advocates to, the decision makers at the C-suite. So thank you so much for all the work that you're doing. well, thank you guys for having me.

And like I said, I. I'm impressed by what you're doing. Continue to to do the work that you're doing and to, you know, help grow this community, you know, teaching people that this is not something to fear and showing them how to use it to create some amazing content. Keep, keep going. Keep going full time. Thank you so much.

Well, I guess we'll see you Palm Springs in just a few days. That's right. That's right. We'll be on the plane. See you soon